May 16, 2022 • 44M

Herbs & Abortion with Deana from Holistic Abortions

In this share, Deana from Holistic Abortions joins Sabia to discuss growing your relationship with herbs, self-managed abortions, the future of herbal abortions, and making time for self-care.

 
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Appears in this episode

Sabia Wade, The Black Doula
A collection of interviews on Designing and Creating the Future of Birth.
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Deana from Holistic Abortions, contact & links

  • https://www.instagram.com/holistic.abortions/

  • https://holisticabortions.bigcartel.com/

Upcoming Events:

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/abortion-showers-tickets-340900280917


Transcription

We apologize in advance for the quality of this transcription, which was provided by Otter.ai

Unknown Speaker 0:03

Hello, hello. Hello. I'm so happy to have you here. Dana and thanks for your flexibility I know we change times around but thank you but I'm so happy to have you here for so many reasons. I became aware of holistic abortions from my friend Alia and then we've like been in your space bat T has been in your space and learn some things from you. I also purchased a zine and got my speculum so whole thing is a whole thing. Well, holistic abortion, but if you don't mind, I would love for you to introduce yourself and just share anything that you would like to share with us.

Unknown Speaker 0:48

Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. So yeah, I'm really happy to have made it made the cut and stayed in your agenda book. And we bumped it up, working out. Yeah. And yeah, I really like your work. And it was, it's been great to have Have you all attending some of the trainings and it feels it feels like a really nice connection. So yeah, I am an herbalist and an abortion doula. I've been an herbal like student officially for over 15 years. And then I've been supporting abortions. Well, like I had my, I suppose some friends casually do their abortions like 20 years ago, but did not really like fully make that connection until I took a training with Molly Dutton, Kenny, about seven years ago. And that

Unknown Speaker 1:47

was like, Really, this week.

Unknown Speaker 1:49

So you Yes, yes. Like really just sort of changed the way that I looked at what abortions could be and how we can support each other better through that. And so, yeah, that was that was life changing. And it was just a couple years ago that myself and a friend of mine who had been just sort of supporting folks quietly or just like directly in our communities decided to be more public and put out holistic abortion. So it's that sort of combination of like, the the herbal focus, as well as being like abortion, doula supports, and then really focusing on like, creating research sources and trainings like by community for community. And then yeah, and doing like, options support for folks like, you know, giving them like, doula support. And then also just like, here's your full range of options, right? Because so much has been around abortion, it's like, this is what it can look like. And that's access. And if you don't have it, then you don't get it. Right. And it's really reductive. Right. And so then like, the other thing that that we do on the page, and I don't know, so many of us are doing right is like that, longer work of like D stigmatizing abortion, yes. But also, like, all forms of abortion, and not just a clinical abortion, right. And so that gets tricky, even within the abortion community to be like, Yeah, but like, Don't demonize herbs don't, you know, demonize people doing it, however, it fits their lifestyle and their needs. And so pushing our language to, like, reflect growth that we've had over the last decades and, and years and months, it seems like it's, it's changing so rapidly, but like letting our language reflect that and shift the narrative and expand our perspectives of like, What even is an abortion, right, and like, questioning, like that moment that we're told an abortion is and like, let's expand that. It's an entire process, you know. And then once you can do that you can expand like, and this is how it could look like 100 million different ways, right? So really just keeping it centered and, and trying to meet them wherever they're at, because they know best,

Unknown Speaker 4:26

that that's the part meeting people where they are because I think I know, when I started this work as a full spectrum, doula and reproductive justice and like, like, was very aware of like abortion being one of the hot topics, of course. But when I thought about abortion, it was definitely very clinical. It wasn't really enough. I did think about abortion that wasn't clinical. It was like a wire hanger. Right? Like it was like, one or the other. There wasn't really any in between. Really, it wasn't until like the Last, maybe like three years or so that I've been like, herbal like, Yes, this is a thing. And even when I was like, I'm in a process of becoming a midwife, I was reading a book that gave that type of information, but it still didn't, clicked me. Like, I didn't really click, I think until like the last, like I said, two or three years, where I was like, huh, access has to look different. And it's like, you know, options have to look different. And I believe if I was in that predicament, and I don't know what the exact qualifications are timeframes, and things like that include, but I was like, herbs will be definitely the way that I would want to. Um, so in that, I think, I guess one of the questions that I have for you, is kind of the education and the stigma around herbal versions, like one of the things that we tell our students through bat tea, is you can support people how you want to support them, I'm not going to tell you yes or no, but also make sure you're getting the right education. So that we're not adding to this, you know, so we're not hurting people. So we're not harming people. But also, I've also found that, like, it's not easy to get that education. Like, it's not really like a thing that's like laying on the, you know, in the library books, if you will. So I guess like, in that for, for anyone who is facing this thing, maybe provide that kind of support, or educate themselves. And, you know, kind of get away from the stigma that they may have internally, as well, even as a person who believes in reproductive justice and abortion access and whatever, like, what they can do, and how they can work through that.

Unknown Speaker 6:49

Yeah, there's so much to sort of unpack with our own biases, and even Yeah, within the herbal world, within the medical world, like there's just layers upon layers. And so, definitely, we, you know, seeking out resources and trainings, but like, I don't know, it's like, so many people just are looking for, like, we want a formula, that's gonna work the same for everybody, every time. And, yeah, you, you're just not really going to find that, you know, like the, using herbs in this way. And really, in your, like, sort of toolbox of like, taking care of your body and your health and your mind. Like, it's not really a prescription, you know, like, it requires this entire unlearning of how we view like, x is used for why and medicine right? And it's only going to affect the one thing that I want, you know, and, and Western medicine talks like that they're like, well, birth control will help, you know, with not getting pregnant, but we all know there's a ton of side effects, right? And that, like, it doesn't just work on this one part of your body, like we're a holistic being and so I don't know, just really working at breaking apart how we view our medicine. And no, like working with herbs is this daily practice. It's this relationship that you enter into. And and yeah, like it can just, it's going to shift what works for you one time isn't gonna necessarily work for you another time and so of course that happens across you know, different people as well. And so I just encourage people to go Paige, like be very patient with themselves and allow a lot of grace and like, know that this is this is a long study and start slow even just sitting with a plant start taking something when you're on your period and see how it moves through you and I don't know there's it's it's slow but the knowledge is there it's it's like within all of us but it's under a lot of layers. So it has to be unearthed carefully

Unknown Speaker 9:18

Yeah, that's so one of the things that kind of like soon as you were like talking I was like, huh, so you're so we obviously know right now that we there's a high chance that we're going into this post bro world and I think with that comes this urgency right for people that want abortion access to continue no matter what because we know that it will is this urgency to like learn is urgency to get all the tools by all the plan being get all the like get all the knee so get all right, like it's like this urgency, understandably so because we're all like, what the fuck right? Um, And, and I think specifically when we're talking about status and locations, who probably already have a lack of access now, but can, you know, go into actually being illegal and their location and creating even more barriers to care that people are looking at learning herbalism for abortion care. But like you said, it's also this need of like, don't move too fast. Right? This is not that this is not a fast practice, this is not a one one size fits all. So I guess like, what would be your thoughts on this possible? Post real existence? One and, and also like, how do we handle that urgency? Right? Because it feels like a necessity. Right? But like, like, how do we how do we how do we find resources if we're not capable of doing it? How do I go to our herbalist and say, Hey, Greg, do you have a key word that we say like, what? What just what's your thoughts on that?

Unknown Speaker 11:09

Yeah. That's true. You know, there's, there's a lot of fear right now. And it's not unfounded, right? And, yeah, there's, and I'm seeing a lot of folks who are like, Okay, now I'm going to look to herbs, or, you know, like, even with like SMA with medication, right. Like, if there's no clinical access, then we go to these other things, which really also just like, reinforces that hierarchy of like, what is, like more quality care? What is like? Yeah, sort of, yeah, what is viewed at a different level, right. Whereas it's really depends on that person in that moment. And like, for some people, a clinic is always going to be their best option and feel the most safe to them. And for some people, even if they have the best clinical access, and all have the privilege to go travel wherever they want, they're not going to want to, they're going to want to use herbs, right. And so, you know, I am also really hesitant to, you know, be trying to replace access and, and legal access with all these other methods, right, like, and yet we need to survive through this. And like, let people have those choices. So, you know, one, it's not necessarily a straight substitute. But needs to acknowledge, like, yeah, how much how different it is for different people. And then even at different times, like, let's say, you know, the average, like, herbal release can take weeks. So at some point in my life, I'd be like, Okay, I have weeks to dedicate to this, and, like, make everything that I'm doing about this release, and like, create space for that. And then maybe next time, I'm like, I actually don't have time for this right now, I'd rather just get a quick extraction, or maybe I've already had a child and I had like preeclampsia. And now I really only feel comfortable being in a clinic, right. And so like, people change situations change. And having, you know, the, the way that we can sort of get through this moment is to be prepared, right. And so like, have your own plan. If you plan on working with herbs, that means you also need to be tracking your cycle, you need to know when you're ovulating, you need to have those herbs and already be in relationship with them. If you're looking to have medication, that's something that you can get pre ordered, and now have on your shelf. There is, you know, I think we all saw through COVID that, you know, stockpiling reinforces privilege and doesn't necessarily give access to those who need it most. And so definitely encouraging people who might be able to who are stockpiling a lot, like if you're not a community resource, maybe address like your own intentions of why that why you're doing that in this moment. And, and or like yeah, make yourself a resource for the community that that is not able to buy these things, buy all these things and just keep them on their shelves, just in case right. So I also just want to like yeah, urge, urge folks to again, take a beat, take a breath and like, look at Yeah, where you're at where how you you will be impacted. And then like how can you sort of soften that impact for others that might be like lack of access and resources.

Unknown Speaker 15:00

For sure, one of the questions that I have for you is, and of course answer to so what you're comfortable with answering with. But I guess like for someone who is seeking an herbal abortion, what should they expect from the person who they're working with? Like, should they expect a consultation? Or should they expect? Like, what? What is the expectation so that, you know, if someone does find themselves in that space, they like, they always have a standard as to which to know like, Okay, this is a good place for me. And maybe this is a little, not what I needed to be. Be. And I'm sure every herbalist has their own way of doing things, but I guess, just like a Yeah, like a standard, if that is the right word use.

Unknown Speaker 15:53

Yeah, so everyone is going to kind of approach it differently. And then of course, access is a huge factor. So like, what what you have what, what's growing in your garden, what's growing in your backyard, what's in your region? What's at your grocery store? And then often people will be like, Okay, well, this is what you have access to. So let's work with it. Again, that's like meeting the client, where they're at, instead of being like, Oh, I gotta, you know, you have to order herbs and only grow or only using, like, traditional Chinese medicine, you know, like, it's really trying to hone in like, who they are, where they're at. And, yeah, I, to me, that's a big part of it. And then, you know, as far as expectations, like you need to be able to be comfortable with this person and honest and not feel like you're being judged or questions, question for the the choices that you want, or like the herbs that you want to work with, or however you want this process to look for you. I have yeah, I've, I've seen and heard of like herbalist be like, Yeah, I'll help you. But they're also sort of undermining the process as they go through it. For their own sort of fear, or I'm not sure why why, like, what the motivations are there. So, yeah, and also questioning somebody who's so confident that they, they already know how this is going to work for you. You know, like, a lot of this is living, you know, this is like a living knowledge that we are building on together. And because it's so specific to each person, like, that's, there's no way to, like really predict all those things. So

Unknown Speaker 17:45

yeah, I imagine it has to be like when you think we're just talking about you have your location, what plants aren't in season, what is actually accessible to you, or someone who is in the process of seeking an abortion doesn't want to wait two or three weeks for an herb to be delivered to the house. Like there's all these pieces. But there's also this, this beauty and thinking about so much of nature, just being a supplier, right and like it just being around. And even like, I know that I would assume that you know, what's in your backyard. But it's, I don't know, I'm just thinking like, you're so amazing that there there is things in your backyard that you can do this procedure with or this process with or whatever other process you want to take take part in. And I guess one of the one question I have for you is like how do you build a relationship with plants and herbs? Because I hear that's like a big part of what you're saying is like, you want to build a relationship on your own. Like, if you are someone who's going to be providing the service that is also important for you to know, your own self and your own relationship to do to nature really. So just wondering, like how you've built that relationship and how that reflects in the work that you do?

Unknown Speaker 19:16

I love this question. Thank you. Because I do I find myself like yes, build really kinship and then somebody is always like, Yeah, but what does that even mean? You know, like, and it can look just so many ways. Yeah, looking and seeing how something is growing. Does it grow by itself? Or is it in with a bunch of other plants? Does it take over an entire space like, like, Royal for example, like it's a mint, right? So we know mints kind of like they like to spread out and they like to take over? And that's one that I've learned like it kind of likes to be alone. Like, it doesn't like to be in formulation, that was one of the first plants that I started working with, before I even really knew what the hell I was doing. I just, I use it for cramping. I was like, No, this is helping with my period like, and I found it work really great in that way. And yeah, it's like, where some of the other ones really like to be in formulation with other plants and they like potentiate each other, right. So like, even just observing it in nature. Sitting with it, listening, seeing if like a story or a song or something starts humming through you like, like, trust your instincts around that. And then on the more like, physiological end to like, you know, making medicine, if you have, you know, if you're able to do that is also such a revealing process. But even if you just go purchase it and take one drop, and like sit with it. And you know, you can put it on your hand, you can put it in your mouth and just see like, where does it move now? Where are you feeling different sensations and really trusting the messages that are coming through our bodies? Because, again, like, we've, we have a language to be communicating with them. But it's, it's, it's buried in there. So like, you have to really trust what's coming through. And then yeah, definitely for people who are bleeding and cycling, and are trying to use medicine, specifically in plants, specifically in this way, like, start taking them around your menses get your body used to, like, this is how it feels when I take Angelica a day or two before my period, you know, and like, you can see how it shifts through you. I don't know one of the other things that I've kind of always found in my herbal practices is like, I don't suggest something that I have never tried. And so, I mean, that could be another question that you asked, maybe an herbalist that you're trying to work with is have Have you tried this, you know, like, what is it? If you're asking someone to take really high doses? What does that feel like? You should know what it feels like what you're asking them to do. That way you can really give like the full range of support, you know, like, another part of my herbal practice. In the past was doing like a lot of gut healing work, which means like doing an elimination diet for over a month like contents, if you've never done it, do that. Yeah. Yeah, like, do it, try it for yourself. So that way you can really know like, what are the side effects? How, how can I support this whole person, this whole process that they're going through and have have some real like, sort of lived experience and empathy around that.

Unknown Speaker 22:55

You're making me want to go out here and like, sign up somewhere. I already plan are going to Molly's class. She has a class coming up. Next week, I think and I plan on going to but yeah, I remember speaking of like herbs and things, becoming a doula and you know, you start kind of learning the tricks of the trade and all that kind of stuff. And one of the things that we work with, particularly for people who are, especially if they're like at that stage, where they're like, oh my gosh, I don't want to have a C section, but I'm, I'm 41 weeks or you know, there's no action happening or so on and so forth. Whatever the reason, may be some clary sage oil. And I remember like, you know, I started working with it, because I was like, you know, with midwives, and they're like, hey, you know, rub this on their wrist, get get some cramping started, whatever, get some, you know, things moving. And I was like, okay, cool, fine. But then I remember when I started cramping, wait a damn minute, right. And like, I remember when I started bleeding, and I'm like, yo, like, this is wild, right? And so, but I feel like that was just one of the things that like, I remember, like, kind of being forced to build a relationship with because it wasn't my practice. But the good part about it was when my clients have any fears or whatever I could really say like, this is what this is going to feel like. This is how it feels like for me, this is like what I like I'm gonna experience this with you to be honest. But it was just like, I don't know, that was kind of a forced connection, because of the work that you know that I do and was doing. But I wonder what other herbs that can be creating relationships with. I thought about being herbalists. It's like, I was living in Massachusetts. And I was like, I don't know if you've ever been in Massachusetts, but it can be really Irby. It can be really crunchy. I mean, it was giving like, you know, white or herbalists, like for sure. Right? But I was like, huh, this is like, really amazing. But anyway. But yeah, I might think about not that I need to do anything else for myself. But you know, I get excited about things, and I just start them anyway. Well, I think that

Unknown Speaker 25:34

clinical sort of background or like, you know, when you've had this instinct, or this thing that you've been using, and then you do, you know, like, research and you're like, oh, yeah, and there's, like the science caught up and is explaining how this works. So,

Unknown Speaker 25:51

yeah, that's cool. And that's why I like what you're saying the gut cleanse out, I'll hit you up offline about that, because that sounds incredible and hard. But also sounds like after or even during you PIFA like magic. But I'm talking to Molly, love that you started with Molly and Molly is the connector. And Molly was saying that she has a hard time with the, like the I guess term Self Managed Care self manage abortion? Because it's not like how do I explain I guess what we don't generally practice so much autonomy, and people don't really have that much choice around how they really want to self manage. So I would love to hear your thoughts on that. As well as I would love to hear. What do you think the future of self managed abortion care can actually look like?

Unknown Speaker 27:01

Yes. How self managed abortions, it's like a little like the term is got a lot to pick apart. And yeah, because everyone is managing their own abortion, they're calling the clinic even if they're like, someone else is doing it. Like they're managing it, they're finding their daycare, they're getting their rides together, like, or they're they're finding a doula who is gonna help them do that, right. So like, everyone is managing their own abortion, no matter what method they're choosing. And so there's like, right now, it's almost used synonymously with like, a medication abortion that you do at home, whether or not you get it through telehealth or some other means. So, yeah, that, and then also, you know, it's like, everyone, it's self managed, and at the same time, like, it takes a whole community of people to make it happen. Right. And so leaning into like this, the Community Care Model, which, yeah, I think could be definitely like a place where I'd see like, non clinical self managed home abortions move into this realm of like, you know, there's this pervasiveness in our culture of like the individualism and like, I'm doing this myself, you know, but like, we can soften that and we can be supportive of each other and like, really pull in all these different aspects and, and have lots of experts and lots of support for the various aspects of your abortion experience. Not just like that moment when they're like the fetus is expelled, right, that is much bigger than that. And, you know, another sort of, it's a little tangental but I'll go here anyways. Like, another like term that we question a lot and with herbalism, I think is really important to question because herbs were really great in different combinations are an almost always as a support for you know, no matter what method you're choosing, like herbs can probably support you even if it's just to like relax or like pain relief, you know, like, there's so many different ways in which herbs can support the body coming back into a balanced situation. And so there's like this heavy focus on like, taking herbal abortifacients and completing the process just using herbs and if you don't do that, then it's not a successful or liberal abortion. But that's another sort of term that I really try and like push back on, like, if you use herbs and you use them for a week or two weeks or you use them after your procedure to like help your axe like then you've been using herbs success. Feeling your abortion like that success? Right? You got to build it how you wanted to that success? And so yeah, the future just being like, letting people really decide what is going to work for them in that moment and being flexible and shifting protocols. And yeah, what is making the most sense. And really letting people feel so held, you know, I read the other story that was shared on the substack. And it was so beautiful to see, like, all the different ways in which this person's community was showing up and held them through this process. And, you know, that's my hope is like, it's an Yeah, that people can be held in in ways that are safe, and where they can be seen and, and have have the full support and range that they need.

Unknown Speaker 30:59

Yeah, that's you, that's your, like, kind of emphasizing that, that part of like, them being held through the whole entire process, right, like, not just as one aspect of this one moment. And I think that's like really interesting, too, because it aligns with birth, right? When we think about someone having a baby, people are so prepared for that one moment of like, when the baby's gonna come out, whatever, or be delivered. But you're like, it's everything else around that, like, you know, like that part is important, right, but the other stuff is going to be the longevity. And that's going to be the ups and downs and ebbs and flows. And, you know, all the support and mental, physical, spiritual, whatever it is, it's all around that moment, unnecessarily. That moment, so I just really appreciate that. I have two more questions. And then I'll be back actually a million questions. For someone who is, I mean, they could be aiming to eventually provide herbal abortion support, or just wanting to put herbs into their their birth practice before practice in general. Where, what are some herbs that they can start with? As they build a relationship?

Unknown Speaker 32:20

Yeah, there's, again, I really like to, like let people be guided on their own, like, what is the one that's calling out to you? What is the one that is part of your ancestral practice or your cultural practice? Or is already in your kitchen and you love cooking with ginger? Like, figure out how do you make that into a therapeutic dose, and like, play around with having as a tincture or decoction? And, like, start working with what is around you. And I feel like most people are already have a plant that's either calling to them, or that they are feeling really drawn to. And so, yeah, I haven't there's like, there's so many I could start with. So it's like, just start just go for it, you know, and yeah, and honestly, there's like, the others, the old saying of like, the, the dose makes the poison. You know, like, mostly, you're not going to be hurting yourself to try these herbs, like just just Yeah, start. Start tuning in and seeing what jumps out when you walk through the grocery and pops out at you like

Unknown Speaker 33:44

that. I love that the one another kind of herbs story quickly. So I used to drink chamomile tea, right? Because people are like, it's an open sleep to help you relax, whatever. And so I was like, okay, cool, but like, every time I would drink it, you know, you don't know how someone else is feeling when he takes something right. So I would drink with a simple cup of chamomile tea. personally miss Kameel and I will feel like not just drowsy but like drunk, like I will look like I took a lot like I don't, but I thought everyone's experiencing that. And so I realized that like it's not that's actually not what everyone is experiencing. So long story less long. I found out that I was the I am allergic to dandelion, and um, you know, this whole family of plants. And so now it's like it's so fun every time I and I love tea like I love herbal tea. Like when I want to be a fancy slob tea bit you know I'm saying and but I always have to look I'm like does it have chamomile? Does it have dandelion does it because like, generally speaking a lot of people say like dandelions will go through your system and they'll help clear things He's out and like, whatever. But I am allergic. So it really causes like a disruption in my system in a way that a lot of people don't understand. But again, I guess that's like also the joys of building these relationships and knowing like, what works for you, and what does it like I could do it topically, something topical on camera mill I can work with. But anything that's ingested. Not it. But I tried it. So I can always apply suggestions to people, I believe it will make you tired. If you're not allergic. Yeah, you know, we do what we can, right, we figure out what we can, I didn't die,

Unknown Speaker 35:44

didn't die and something about yourself, and then you're able to apply it to lots of other plans. And then that's also like, a caveat that you can give to people who are like, I don't know, can we meal doesn't work for me, like, hey,

Unknown Speaker 35:56

yeah, but then I learned about valerian root, right? Because I was like, Okay, I do want something that helps to like, relax, or whatever, but it's not that it's so I don't know, it's very, it's a herbs and plants. And all that is, is it really is building relationships. So I just appreciate that. So the last question I have for you, is, in the space of possibly being post grow, even, you know, just doing this work in general, we know that abortion is always up on the table in one way or another? How are you taking care of yourself? How are you finding space for yourself, when I'm when I'm pretty sure that there's always a demand of knowledge a demand of, of something from you, or probably constantly specifically right now? Yeah, how are you taking care of you?

Unknown Speaker 37:00

Thank you for reminding me and everyone else that we should do that. And we should create for that, and then we should talk about it, you know, and, and yeah, center that in our conversations. You know, I am really grateful for the, the friends and community, my partner, like, helping hold me through this space and showing up and knowing like, Hey, we've been not really like preparing for this moment, necessarily, but like, we've been building outside of these structures for a long time. And we have pretty solid support groups. And I've just been really grateful to like have have folks that I can, I can call on and that we can support each other. And laugh and vent when it feels like a really, you know, dark sort of time. And, yeah, have some folks that are like feeling pretty grounded and like okay, yeah, we've, we just continue on. Yeah, doing that and just, you know, setting reminders so that I'm snacking and eating regularly. And then of course I got I got off the tea train for a little while. And now it's just like every, every morning after my one cup of coffee, I also like set up my jar and set it outside to make some tea. So I've got Linden and skullcap and like all the all the nice things for my nervous system and get to sit through that through the day. So those those are my my little things that I'm

Unknown Speaker 39:00

doing. So you're doing the thing you're doing you're doing great.

Unknown Speaker 39:04

I mean, yeah. Good, sometimes my brain still will float off and but I'm trying Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 39:14

Well, you're definitely you're definitely doing great. I think I'm definitely going to investigate some more herbs that support my nervous system and build some relationship with because I really liked if it's in tea form, I can I can get down you know, so I'm like, How can I so if you ever have some suggestions that you wouldn't like send to me this is a great place to get tea, because also like I don't want it to be like, I'm gonna buy from people that I should be buying from, you know what I mean? So some into that but do you want to share any of your contact information or anything that you have coming up? This is definitely a space to share that if you feel called to

Unknown Speaker 40:00

Oh, yeah, you can drop the Instagram on the on the page. I am going to do sort of herbal abortion one on one just to get a foundation of what do we know what don't we know? And why? Because that helps ground us and to not necessarily just seeking that, that prescription. Right. So that'll be coming up in the next few weeks. Oh, and then on the the 28th I'm doing I'm the guest for the abortion showers with emotional gangster. Are you familiar with? No? Yes. So they just they, they throw an abortion shower for one person every month. It's always the last Saturday. And we're doing one this month and I'm the person and we're just play games and celebrate. And yeah, I get to celebrate our abortions and tell some stories and learn from one another. So that's coming up. I can play some games.

Unknown Speaker 41:06

Yes. I love that also, too, with your, your 101 course like, what's the set for that? Is it a couple of hours long? Like what? What's the what's the deets?

Unknown Speaker 41:17

Going with 90 minutes. Nice and simple. Because yeah, the stuff people are like, well, we'll learn it in, you know, two hours, four hours, like, No, we won't. So I'm just gonna 90 minutes and hoping to have a longer sort of program to roll out a little bit later in the year.

Unknown Speaker 41:38

For sure. Well, thank you so much for being here. If you need any type, of course building information or help, please let me know. I don't know everything about herbal abortions, but I do know a bit about course creation. Yeah, if that becomes something that is of interest to you, we can definitely share on that. And yeah, I'm just grateful for the work that you do for the knowledge. And also my to name to that. There's this element around abortion care specifically, that can literally be dangerous, right. And when you put yourself out there when you show your face when you say your name and all that. So appreciating like, you're you don't have to do that. And you do, right like you don't care. So just appreciate you putting like your name out there and like just doing the work and being visible. Because we need that balance, right? There's so many people that are invisible for whatever reasons, and that's totally fine, understandable. And there's also going to be people that are visible, like yourself. So I just appreciate the work. I'm going to try not to just sign up and learn some like herbalism right now. Because I definitely feel that poll to be like listen, we got to do when we got to do it. Yeah, I appreciate you. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 43:08

Thank you so much for chat. And yeah, just being a big support for for this work in general. really appreciative glad to be in community.

Unknown Speaker 43:19

Same Well, I'm going to end this recording here. But we're definitely going to post all the information that we can and the show notes so everyone will have access. Thank you. Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai