The Birth Neoterist Newsletter
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Talking to kids about abortion

Talking to kids about abortion

Guest Carly Manes is an author of a children's book titled "What's an Abortion, Anyway?"

 Carly Manes (she/her) is a white, queer, Jewish full-spectrum doula from New York. Carly has been a practicing abortion doula/companion for over seven years, previously co-leading the DC Abortion Doula Collective and currently co-leading the LA Abortion Support Collective. In May 2021, Carly and community artist Emulsify published the first-ever gender-inclusive and medically accurate children's book about abortion care titled "What's an Abortion, Anyway?". Currently, Carly co-leads the Dopo Abortion Doula Cooperative, an international group of abortion doulas/companions working in their communities to ensure people seeking abortion care have the emotional, physical, and medical resources they need for holistic care. Carly loves the beach, chicken tenders, and her silly pitbull Mickey.




provided by We apologize for any errors.

Sabia 0:00 Um Okay, so welcome. Welcome. Welcome Carly, how are you doing?

Unknown Speaker 0:09 I am hot. It is very good. I live currently in Los Angeles, California on unseeded, Tongva land. And it's boiling today. So I am toasty. I am sweaty, but I feel present and very excited to be here with you. Sabia 0:27 Yay. I love that. And how like, how hot is it there? We didn't talk about numbers. It's like 110 95 Like what's I Unknown Speaker 0:36 think we're in the high 90s Right now, but I haven't there's Hey, I just say Sabia 0:40 that's cool. I for LA though. That's a lot. Unknown Speaker 0:43 It is to offer LA. Sabia 0:44 Yeah, like Georgia, we'd be fine. Like, cool. Whatever. Right? It's cool. But la that's a different. It's a different way of existing. I understand. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. Tell us about who you are. And we'll definitely go to your your magnificent book. And I know that but like, who are you? Who is this person that I'm in space with? Tell me more. Unknown Speaker 1:13 Yeah. Who am I? I am I think if I were to use adjectives and Descriptors to start, I am a very queer, white anxious able bodied human who is from New York who absolutely loves chicken tenders any variety. I will say I say tender specifically and not nuggets that feels important to me. I am parent to an eight year old Pitbull named Mickey. who I love so dearly. She's certainly a part of my self care routine. And what else? I guess I'm a children's book author. It sounds so weird to say. Sabia 2:07 No, it's so weird. Wait, pause right because you're not my book. Yes. So we can talk about this like this. It's a weird and like your book is out into the world. Mine is out mine is available on preorder. That's that's fine. But that's enough to get me into like this anxiety like it when people are like here because I'm like, I'm an author. Yeah, like do I should I put publish author in front like what? What does any of this mean? Isn't it weird?

Unknown Speaker 2:42 That weird? It's so weird. Yeah, I honestly when I when I this book came out in May 2021. And I've done like plenty of interviews about it talked about at a time and introduced myself in a lot of different spaces. I still very rarely say author or published author which feels really funny. So it's definitely one that like, is a dance around it especially because I do plan on putting out any other books in my lifetime. But life is long who knows. The other thing that that is really core to who I am and how this book came to be is that I'm an abortion companion slash abortion doula have been in that work for about eight years now mainly in clinical settings. My roots are with the DC, doulas for choice collective where I got started. And I now currently am a part of the LA abortion support collective. And I co run an organization called Dafoe where we do international abortion support and companion training. So yeah, that's a little bit about me.

Sabia 3:45 Yes, I'm here for one. Love all the work that you're doing, because it's so necessary. I also think it's important that like, that you said, like your book came out in 2021. And I just appreciate like people understanding, especially people coming into this space that like this work has been happening. Like it's been a con because I know right now everyone's like, oh shit, you know, and like, that's fine. People are going to come to the work as they come to it. Right, which is namely that like, we have to listen and be aware of the work that has already been done. And that will continue to happen and like using that as the scaffoldings out we move forward.

Unknown Speaker 4:25 Yeah. I feel that really viscerally around practical support work around abortion right now and abortion companionship work. I am with you. I think it's amazing that folks really want to get involved and like be here in this moment. And what I have said for a long time in this work because I've made many mistakes myself. Okay. Hello, yes. In person coming into the space is do your research, like know who exists in your community already. duplicative efforts just don't help the Canadian help anyone, they don't help the folks we're trying to. At the end of the day, if all of our values are aligned, which I really believe, to my core they are is that we just want to support each other and people Sure. And we got to do it in a way that is holistic honors and honors the work that's happened and it plugs into and are blessed and expands on the amazing thing going on since people have started having abortions.

Sabia 5:25 For sure. So let's get into this book. Yeah. Tell us about the book. Tell us what it is like. I'm like, I'm like thinking about in my life. Like Who? Who? Not even just children, but adults too. But that I need to be sending your book too. But yeah, tell us more.

Unknown Speaker 5:46 Yeah. So got this book right here. It's called What's an abortion. Anyway, I am the author of the book. But it's very important for me to name up top that all of these gorgeous illustrations that you see here, are created by the artist emulsify, their name is Maher, they go by most fine art on Instagram, and say, there we go, some beautiful pictures. And Mars is really an illustrator behind this book would not have happened without them. And the photos that you see in the book actually are of abortion storytellers. They are based on the real images of the testify storytellers that we partnered with. But the origin of this book, in a quick synopsis is that I started being an abortion companion in clinics in 2015. And as a lot of us know, people who have abortions already our parenting little ones in their lives a lot of different ways. And as we also know, childcare is very expensive in this country. So people bring their kids to the abortion clinic, because, you know, where else do you go when you need an abortion, and you've got kids that need to be cared for. And I would often have patients, and folks having abortions in the clinic asked me, you know, I've got kids at home, or I've got a kid in the waiting room, or I might want to talk to kids about this later in life about this the part of my family building journey, it's part of history, how do I talk to kids about it? And I was early in my 20s. And didn't have I was not the caretaker for any little ones in my life, the time? And I was like, That's a great question. I have no idea. So I'm gonna do what any good millennial does, which is I'm going to Google the answer. And Google also had no answer. For me, the only materials that came up when I Googled, you know how to talk to kids about abortion, or explicitly anti abortion content, it was called, I'm a pro life kid, it was content about talking to your kids, about the values of no matter how tiny a life is that matters, which just, of course, did not resonate with me would not resonate patients. And so over a two year period, I continued to Google hoping that some sort of resource would be developed and it wasn't. So in 2017, I decided to give a try to write a job that I had something to share with the patients that I was supporting. And I wrote that book, I talked to dozens of child educators, providers, caregivers, little ones themselves made sure the content fence, you know, felt really resonant felt like it was a good foundational resource, one of what I hoped would be many. And I pitched it to agents I emailed to to over 400 different book agents, I reached out to probably 20 small independent presses and not a single person was interested in this book. They were like, I am not touching that. Kids abortion like that. Just

Unknown Speaker 8:57 yeah. Unknown Speaker 8:59 risky. And then a lot of the feedback I got too, was that the type of narrative I had written, which was that it's actually not a narrative at all. It's not one person's story. It's not. That is about one reason that people have an abortion that didn't use the word women, you know, is gender inclusive. And I think folks weren't interested in that either. So I tried for a really long time, I was really fortunate to meet Maher at a abortion doula slash companion gathering. That's for 2019. And when I met them, I knew right away that I wanted this book in the world that if a publisher wasn't going to be brave enough to do it, we'd have to do it on our own. Mar, so kindly offered to be my partner on this and was willing to illustrate the book and from there, we take it to Kickstarter, and it's now a thing in the world at bars and public libraries and it truly It's hard to wrap my head around how like little independent published book is now in people's home libraries. And it feels really good.

Sabia 10:10 Wow, being a writer and knowing the process of everything it takes for a book to get to the point that is on his shelf. Right, like, it's a long process. And also naming to that, like, I know, when I was in my, in my, you know, looking for agents and all other stuff, looking for a publisher, it was also very important that like, I didn't have to drown out what I thought or felt to go to be in alignment with what they feel is like safe for their for their company. So I can imagine that people are like, Wait, first of all, you're not being gendered. When it comes to like reproductive health. They are talking about abortion, and you're talking about kids, two kids two, like that's a whole big mix, but I'm happy that you like, went through it, it kept going found your partner did the things because it's necessary. So I mean, one of the things obviously, that's really amazing about your book is like, I think back to when, like sex ed was happening in high school, and in whatever grade I was in, and there was no conversation about abortion. And like, I really think about that, what we're like, having just covered I'm like, wait, I mean, we talked about birth control, and we talked about sex and where babies come from and blah, blah, blah. But it was really like the abstinent or be a teen parent. There really wasn't any. Like at all. I remember the first time I really heard the word abortion, maybe like I was in high school, but I think it was because someone was having an abortion, but it was like, oh, so taboo, this person had an abortion did have that, right. So yeah, so what should you do? I guess, like, what are your thoughts on it? Like, why is it important to have these conversations with people and these stages of their life specifically? And also, like, what was your sex and kind of like what you were growing up with?

Unknown Speaker 12:26 Okay, let me start with the first piece, which is I got it's important for so many reasons. And I think Renee Bracey Sherman and Hannah Matthews, two brilliant folks in our movement space. I think they both said it, which is that abortion, built their family like abortion is a part of a family story. So if you're telling the story, you've got a little one in your life and you're telling their birth story. And abortion is a part of their story. That's one very valid reason to share your family formation right like how your family came to be abortion is is a part of a lot of people's family forming stories. But I think the reason specifically that it's important to talk about abortion with little ones is we're normalizing it the way that if you're going to talk to a little one about birth about miscarriage but any other pregnancy outcome when we leave out abortion we're inherently stigmatizing it right so we're saying it's okay to talk to little ones about reproductive outcomes like birth and like miscarriage but abortions not okay abortions to portions yet,

Sabia 13:32 because I remember feeling like abortion was like a dirty word. I was like, Okay, I get it. But I was like, but this is dirty, like you shouldn't

Unknown Speaker 13:41 be exactly, um, for us this book. Abortion is inherently political, therefore, it's a political book. But it's not a book about legality around abortion. It's not a book that uses words like pro choice or pro abortion, although we absolutely are a portion. It's a book that is meant to sit along in your library every other book about a pregnancy outcome because just because the world has politicized abortion doesn't mean that we need to do that with little ones. Not this book is really a foundational piece of a young person want to know what an abortion is? In the same vein that a young person wants to know how someone gets pregnant young person wants to know what's a miscarriage, it's these words that they hear and there's fear. And we want to do want to define that first and a medically accurate non judgmental, gender inclusive way. And this book does that because when you leave it up to the world for little ones to get their education as big as as your faces telling me Yeah, right.

Sabia 14:42 Yeah, even when you think about like, especially thinking about like sex, right? Like we often say, like, we don't necessarily want a child or teen or whoever to learn about sex through porn, because it's not usually realistic. Yeah. Right. And I think it's like the same way without With abortion, like, learning it, just thinking about so when I was a kid and learning what abortion was through the grapevine No, we shouldn't have been a thing would have been much better if I was informed from like a medically accurate, this is what this is kind of way. So I definitely understand that. And also I think there's a part of like bodily autonomy that becomes part of the conversation for people under 18 of like, they deserve to know their options. They deserve to be aware of what their choices are they deserve to do and know these things. Because, you know, even if you're under the age of 18, you still should have bodily autonomy.

Unknown Speaker 15:45 Yeah. You asked about sex ed, that's exactly what it goes into. For me. I got involved in advocacy when I was 15. Because I was I was mobilized around abstinence only sex ed. So I actually had pretty good sex ed, in my school district in New York. But do you remember the show 16 and pregnant? Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. That's what politicize me for the first time, and they go really visceral way and like to action, I saw that show. And I was around the same age, as a lot of the young people on the show getting pregnant. And I would hear the reasons that they had gotten pregnant that they didn't know about contraception that they thought that if you were on top that pregnancy was less likely, like all I know, all these like really deep misconceptions that really showed a lack of access to education and knowledge about their own bodies. And it hit me in such a way that like, I was always a young person that really hated the response of like, because I, because I said so or Yeah, same. I was always someone who's like, I am here to respect my elders, and I deserve respect as a young person to like, okay, holer Yeah, this is not age, age, not be Sabia 16:57 set up person. Like, you're supposed to say, Please, and thank you, and what should I be like? You gonna say please, and thank you. Unknown Speaker 17:07 Like, I want to live in a world where we respect each other, on our basic humanity, not based on not based on any other factor except for the fact that we're human. So it is disrespectful, in my opinion to young people to actively deny them accurate information about it's, it's disrespectful, and it's dangerous, right to deny them accurate information about their health, their well being embodies. And that's what got me fired up. I was like, these young people on the show have no idea about their bodies. Like, that's, it's disrespectful, and it's dangerous. And I'm going to Google and I found a conference, and then I got involved in advocacy. But it's the same for me with young ones, right? Like if we're teaching and this conversation around abortion with with little ones, flows so nicely into any values, that you're teaching them around consent. So if we're doing our little ones, which in my world we should be about, they are the owners of their bodies, right? They do not owe anyone physical touch. And that's the same when it comes to the decision that they make about about their bodies. And abortion is a decision that people later in their lives or early in their lives have a reproductive choice to make and that is they they get to decide what that looks like. And it follows the same value set around consent and body so I think it just it those are the values that we're teaching in our home in society, abortion is no different. Sabia 18:34 For sure. And I know we were talking about Larada and we're talking about their work as being like a young person in this work. And, you know, and I think about, you know, often think about, like teens and their influence on like, whether we're the world's gonna be in a few years, but also thinking about the people below teenager, I'm like, they are literally the future. Like, they are the future. So like, we can establish better foundations for them to build off of as we continue to do this work as it continues to advance as it becomes more more of like a, you know, Kitchen Table conversation, you know, like, they can really normalize this shit. They can look Oh, yeah, I learned what abortion was a seventh and I kept the fucking moving like, it's not a big deal to them. That's exactly. Unknown Speaker 19:25 I don't want them to learn about it as a political issue. I want them to learn about it as a continuation of their values. So it's interesting. I talked to us on a podcast recently where we were talking about if you have an anti abortion, family member, would you like your kid have you know if Grandma wants to talk about to your child about, you know, their anti abortion values? Are you okay with that? And it was this really interesting conversation around for me personally. I'm not trying to tell my child politically what to believe and not to believe what I'm saying. Are you is set a value. Normalization like in our house, we value respect we value autonomy, we value that we value, love and non judgment and compassion for all people regardless of the choices that they make in their own lives and betting that value set early with the little ones that I'm that I'm raising, or that I'm around during my community, it naturally is going to lend itself to a person who grows up to believe in abortion access, because it's the values are higher respect individuals and their choices, it would be a pretty far stretch to imagine that they would later in life come to a place where they don't don't yeah, um, why totally, you know, decisions to do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies and their pregnancies. Sabia 20:53 So totally lame, important too, because I think sometimes when I think about like, the other side of the world, meaning people that have opposing opinions from the ones that we share, I think, you know, and it's from both sides, we're like, man, we're just like indoctrinating our kids into this very, like political standpoint, it's like, you got to do this and that and be left and right and whatever. And it's really not about that, right? Like, it's really about like, what are your values? Because the left and the right, and whoever always gonna exist, they're never going to be perfect, either party, right? Because this is not going to happen. But like, what are your actual values? And what do you what do you want to bring into your life with those values, and that means the decisions that you make, don't make things that you believe in, don't believe in that people actually have in your life and don't have your life? And I think that's just like, such a better way of of allowing children to be informed about what adults are doing. mostly adults, I would say, but in a way that makes sense to them. Right? Because kids can see, yes, no, right? Wrong, whatever they can see through that. They don't need to see through the president and listen to that, and whoever, but they need to see like, what makes you feel good. It makes you feel empowered in your own body. Where's your autonomy, even as a child, right, what does that look like? So I really appreciate that reframe. And the next,

Unknown Speaker 22:28 as you say, the other thing, too, that that you brought up is we just do not give young people like young people are so smart, you know, like they

Unknown Speaker 22:41 are smarter than us has to do sometimes

Unknown Speaker 22:43 are so brilliant. And when we when we as adults determine that they are not ready for something like my I get asked this question a lot, when is it the right time to talk to a little one about abortion, and it's when they come to you, like a three year old comes to me and asks and says the word abortion like oh, what do you know what that means? Like, meeting them with curiosity, where they are, is like, that's how we respect little ones, not by denying them information and determining for them when they're ready. And when they're not ready to know Sure. realities, for sure. And that means doing it in a way that is age appropriate that is that they're able to comprehend. To determine that they are not ready when they are actively engaging around something, I think that is certainly a form of child ism. And yeah, just not a value that yet, you know, nothing

Sabia 23:41 to like, what you're talking about those values, right? Like, you don't have to necessarily for a three year old, four year old, even a 10 year old, like, let's talk about abortion today, right? Like, it doesn't have to be that but I think when you name the values that you want them to inherit, if you will, right. So if you're saying to a two year old, what you do say to two year olds and one year olds, you need to respect the next person's body space, time, whatever it is, right? And if you're saying to them, even at one and a half years old, if you don't want to give a hug to someone, I respect your bodily autonomy, right? Like that creates the space for a child to come to you when they're like, Hey, I heard about this thing abortion What is this? Right? Because they can connect to oh, this is the space where I have choice over my body, which means that I can explore the choices that I have, right and come to my parent or whoever my caregiver and say like, Hey, I know these are our values and I think this slides in somewhere not quite sure what it is. But can you explain it to me so that I know what it is like that to me, right? Like that opens up the gates for children. I just talked about sex and bodies and love and like all you know, I'm saying like, it's not about like, just, you know, weighing you down. Let me tell you Oh, other sexual love and relationships, like, that's too much, right. But if that does come up in your stratosphere, and you do want to talk about it, you know that we fuck with these kinds of relief systems. And so therefore, I would love to educate you on it. And you decide where that lands for you. Like, yeah, I'm not ready to be a parent yet. I'm a TT, but I need to parry it. But if I ever did do the parenting thing, I would say, at least in that atmosphere, I don't know about all the other stuff. But the values and like the conversation, I just like, that's the thing. I love that about kids. Like, they're just like, What is this? Yeah, you're like, Whoa, I was talking to my friends, kids the other day, me and my, my friend was talking to her kids. And one of them was talking about, you know, having a little crush on somebody. And like someone else being their boyfriend or whatever they were going through. And they were like, oh, like, I know, I can't have both. And we were like, you could be poly? And they were like, what's that? So we just had a conversation about it. And they were like, Oh, can I survive with that? And I'm like, great. Right? Write? It wasn't like a complicated Oh, who

Unknown Speaker 26:16 told you that you can use another way? You're just another way of being? Sabia 26:21 Exactly. And they're like, Okay, so it's not bad. Like, as long as everybody's in the loop. It's, honestly, transparency. We're keeping our values that way. Yeah, everyone's in the loop. We're doing good. And they're like, Okay, cool. Like, not a thing. But I think like you said, we just give kids more credit. Yeah, absolutely. They just, they get a lot of shit. And they get it in a simpler term that we can absorb as adults and be like, you know, it actually isn't that complicated. People deserve to do what they want to do their body because it's their own.

Unknown Speaker 26:50 Yeah. Done. naptime.

Sabia 26:55 Yeah. Okay. Um, so I have a couple more questions for you. And my first question is, so the whole thing about like birth, Neil terrorism and my like, sub stack is like this whole, like, building the future, right, of like reproductive health, and the many things that that encompasses, right, like family building, education, whatever the hell is a whole thing. So in respect to the work that you have done in our topic today, like, what do you think? Or what are you hoping that the future of like, reproductive education is for kids?

Unknown Speaker 27:36 Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, it's really that piece that I spoke about around abortion. I mean, I would love to live in a world one day we're all reproductive health outcomes are not politicized. They are, they are simply a part of our Yeah, they just are. They're a part of our lives, in races and in our lives. And I think that's what I hoped for abortion to that when little ones learn about abortion, it's not around a political value, it is around a reality of our lives. And that is a it is this is an outcome of pregnancy, just like the way that we talk about birth, just like the way that we talked about miscarriage. It's simply another thing that can happen when someone has a pregnancy. That's definitely something that I hold really dear. And that I want to see this book not on the shelf with a is for activist not in the shelf, I mean, I'd be honored to have my book, a lot of bucks at kin stores. And it should be in the educational section around, you know, vote. So like outbreak, health and health outcomes. I also am really hoping that we are raising our little ones with an expansive understanding of who has abortions. So I think right now, we still use socially I want to say we socially, you all at bat and and we adopt, and a lot of people in our movement are very good about visualizing and honoring trans men and non binary people and all people who have abortions, but that is not I think, where we are currently with our political education around abortion. And so it's something that I really hope this book lends to I hope that it gives people language and images of all folks that have abortions as a part of our our education around abortion care for the future. Yeah, I think those are my two like biggest desires. And I feel like I have a personal stake and how and how that gets done.

Sabia 29:47 For sure, for sure. Yeah, definitely that part, right. Like even as someone who had been doing this, this work for a while, definitely socially, it's basically like, hey, women aren't the only one Get abortion? Can we expand this conversation a little bit? Yes. And so my last question to you is, with all this, and all the stuff that's going on in the world, the work that you're doing the work that you're planning to do the work that you have done. How are you thinking of yourself?

Unknown Speaker 30:20 Yeah. I think it's the way that a lot of your other guests and conversations go, which is like, in community. Knowing that there are so many incredible folks doing this work have been doing this work for a long time. I know a lot of us who have been in the work for a while when we talk about how we felt the morning that that row was was overturned. I know for a lot of us, it feels really different than folks who have not been in the work for longer. Sure. Some ways to I want to honor the same in some ways, it sure

Sabia 30:55 is that same sadness, same whatever. But like some of it when you're been in this work, and you know that it's kind of been on the table.

Unknown Speaker 31:02 Yeah. Right. Like, okay, yeah. You know, I co founded the DC abortion practical support network in 2018, to provide rides and housing because we saw an increase of people coming to our area from states around the country who weren't able to get access for care. That was in 2018. Right for your vision came down. So you know, I think I in community right now, I just feel a sense of like real comfort and resilience, knowing that like, we have structures, we have systems, we have community, grassroots groups. And I think that's just heartening. And then the other way that I'm just like, literally, keeping myself grounded and you get to see it behind me is I picked up painting

Unknown Speaker 31:50 again, I haven't Oh, that's, that's good.

Unknown Speaker 31:53 It's not painting. It's a cat. It's my friend's cat. Okay, but I haven't painted with acrylic paint since I was probably 12 or 13. And I went to Michael's and Sabia 32:06 like, bottle painting is really good. There's been points in my life where painting has helped me move through some shit. Unknown Speaker 32:13 Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's being creative. And I think it's really like leaving a computer screen for, you know, having something that I'm looking forward to. That's not that a screen is not my avenue to it. And don't get me wrong. I love a lot of trash TV like, and they're also a real joy for me. But having find that, finding a way where I'm not using my screen and then taking a quick peek at my email, but like really blasting some. i This is an embarrassing thing, but I'm going to share it with you because I really like you are a non judgmental person. I am laughing some creed like loving on Oh, do that. Do that on like, my emo kid music I'm putting on Fallout boy and Good Charlotte. Sabia 33:01 Listen, I'm here for it painting here. You might catch me with some shenanigans going on. You just don't know. Like, whatever it Whatever my heart is feeling pulled towards

Unknown Speaker 33:10 want to know when I want to honor that. Because I think that that's a brilliant, beautiful thing. So So yeah, just going into my own little world around creativity. So that's, that's one of the ways right now.

Sabia 33:20 I love that. Whoa, we are at our time. But I do want to say because you said like, in the beginning, you're like, Okay, I wrote this book, forever write a book again. So I was in that space. When I was writing my book. I was like, cuz my book is like, 67,000 words or something. And I was like, on the last like, 10,000. And like 15, like, between, I think was like 10,010 to 12,000. And I was like, texting my agent. And I was like, never doing this again. Never doing this again. I don't know why I agree to do this. This is horrible. Like, you're expecting me to just like fucking put all these words out. It has to make sense in my head that it has to make sense to people and like, it's a whole fucking thing. Like, I'm never doing this again. And then I got to like, you know, less than 5000 words. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna do this again. Like, I know, like, if I was like, I'm gonna do this again, like everybody, like, I can see my second book, right, like, and birth, new terrorism being a part of it. But I was like, Yeah, I can see it. So I say that also say, is that book writing? Illustrating all that kind of your partner obviously are partnered on his book, which you probably should do it again.

Unknown Speaker 34:37 Yeah, we'll see what what other stigmatized social taboo issue needs a children's book that we're not I mean, there's

Sabia 34:43 there's a part two that's needed with this abortion product book like

Unknown Speaker 34:47 absolutely, yeah. The I just want to say I can't wait for your book to come out. Huge. Mazel Tov to you. on you, Don and I know it's in pre order right now. So yeah, both boldly walk To the world as as published authors,

Sabia 35:03 and I have it for ourselves, but to be proud I know Oh, still so weird though. And I have like a shirt that says, like future best selling author because I'm trying to get myself like, you know, like what, um, it's still a lot for me. Like when people are like saying my little bio or like author, I'm like, Oh, it's you. I can't listen. We'll send a copy your way. But definitely thank you for all your work. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your creations in many ways, the book the organization's the work that you do. And being in this work for the time that you've been in it, because it's all so necessary. So thank you.

Unknown Speaker 35:47 Yeah, and right back at you. Thank you so much for the time today. Sofia Have a good one. You too.

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Sabia Wade, The Black Doula